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Theorem Suggestion: countable + metrizable => LOTS #1413

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@pzjp

Theorem Suggestion

If a space is:

  • countable P57
  • metrizable P53

then it is orderable P133.

Analogous theorem works for the local properties: P93 + P82 $\Rightarrow$ P120

Rationale

This theorems would demonstrate that no spaces satisfy the following searches:

https://topology.pi-base.org/spaces?q=countable%2BMetrizable%2B%7ELOTS
https://topology.pi-base.org/spaces?q=locally+countable%2Blocally+Metrizable%2B%7ELocally+orderable

References

See Corollary 6.2.8. and Excercise 6.3.2.f in Engelking.

Remark

It could be also decomposed upon adding strongly 0-dimensional property (see #1388) into

  • countable + regular $\Rightarrow$ strongly 0-dim
  • metrizable + strongly 0-dim $\Rightarrow$ LOTS

I have no idea if there is any meaningful decomposition for the local version.

Activity

  1. Moniker1998 commented on Aug 22, 2025

    @Moniker1998
    Collaborator

    Strongly 0-dimensional doesn't work that well for subspaces, but it's closed under closed subspaces, so we could have
    regular + strongly 0-dimensional + locally metrizable => locally orderable perhaps

  2. Moniker1998 commented on Aug 22, 2025

    @Moniker1998
    Collaborator

    I definitely agree we should add strongly 0-dimensional first

  3. pzjp commented on Aug 27, 2025

    @pzjp
    CollaboratorAuthor

    Theorems planned to be added:

    • P53 + P217 $\Rightarrow$ P133 ("global")
    • P82 + P93 $\Rightarrow$ P120 ("local")
  4. prabau commented on Aug 27, 2025

    @prabau
    Collaborator

    Would there be an advantage in releasing one and then the other separately, so one could see what additional examples are not covered by the first theorem alone?
    (or at least do a first commit with one theorem, check which traits are missing without the second one, then do another commit)

  5. pzjp commented on Aug 27, 2025

    @pzjp
    CollaboratorAuthor

    See the branch pzjp/order-thm. Herrlich uses different definition of strongly 0-dimensional (and his paper is in German) so I used Engelking's excercise as a refernce but simplified the construction-hint a bit.
    Unfortunatley the branch was created (a moment) before you've merged locally-ordered-4 and P133 for S102 is missing (I redirect to this proof for a hint on the constructed order topology).

  6. prabau commented on Aug 27, 2025

    @prabau
    Collaborator

    You can always merge main into your branch.

  7. pzjp commented on Aug 27, 2025

    @pzjp
    CollaboratorAuthor

    Should there be also a cleanup? For some spaces asserting P133 or P120 it became derivable.

  8. prabau commented on Aug 28, 2025

    @prabau
    Collaborator

    The cleanup can be done at the same time in this case.

  9. prabau commented on Aug 28, 2025

    @prabau
    Collaborator

    See the branch pzjp/order-thm. Herrlich uses different definition of strongly 0-dimensional (and his paper is in German) so I used Engelking's excercise as a refernce but simplified the construction-hint a bit. Unfortunatley the branch was created (a moment) before you've merged locally-ordered-4 and P133 for S102 is missing (I redirect to this proof for a hint on the constructed order topology).

    The Engelking exercise does not appear trivial. If it's a little involved, it's preferable to give details in a mathse post for example (or find a more detailed reference). If you go that route, as usual either do question and answer yourself (properly motivated to avoid downvotes from some people), or ask one of us to post a question.

  10. pzjp commented on Aug 28, 2025

    @pzjp
    CollaboratorAuthor

    Maybe someone else should ask the question in that case. I'm not that confident about the details of my approach (but if it works it is a bit easier than the hint in Engelking).

  11. linked a pull request that will close this issueNew orderability theorem(s) #1421on Aug 28, 2025
  12. prabau commented on Aug 28, 2025

    @prabau
    Collaborator

    I'll take a closer look at the proof you have in T771 (in #1421) first. Maybe it's not that bad and there is no need to ask on mathse.

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